Town of Charlton
Planning Board Minutes
784 Charlton Road
Charlton, New York 12019
Minutes of Planning Board Meeting – November 17, 2008
Chairman Ray Black called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. at the John W. Taylor Hall.
Present: Ray Black, Chairman, Jay Wilkinson, John Kadlecek, Connie Wood, Dawn Szurek, Mike Armer, Bill Ryan, Esq., Acting Planning Board Attorney, Susan York, Planning Board clerk and Kimberly Caron, Recording Secretary.
AGENDA MEETING:
Mr. Black stated that there is a quorum of five members.
Minutes
Mr. Black asked for comments on the draft of the October meeting minutes. Mrs. York previously provided comments via mail. Mr. Black made a change to wording. Mrs. Wood added a comment. No other comments were presented.
Mrs. York was asked to contact the consultant Caroline Gallego and inform her that the Planning Board would like to add WiFi to her request list for the new Town Hall.
Public Hearings
Mr. Black stated that there are no Public Hearings.
Lot Line Change
Heritage/Palmer (247-1-29.11 & 247-1-29.12)
Mr. Black stated that the Board has received new maps. Mr. Black stated that there were some questions regarding the intent of the lot line change. Mr. Black stated that the new drawings now have the title change the Board requested to make clear the land to be conveyed. Mr. Black stated that the Board requested a change in the characterization of “machinery barn” to “pole barn”. Mr. Black stated that it appears that all of the changes that the Board requested have been made.
Mr. Black stated that the Board has received comments from the County. Mr. Black stated that the decision was no significant countywide or inter community impact. Mr. Black stated that the comment pertained to clarifying the intention of the conveyance, which has been addressed with the new maps. Mr. Black stated that on the drawings, it has been corrected in two places.
Mr. Black stated that the Board has already taken lead agency status for SEQRA and has waived all fees. Mr. Black stated that the Board could act on this application this evening.
Subdivision Applications
Heflin/Durst (255-1-40.1, 41, 43.1, 43.2, 43.3)
Mr. Black stated that this is a placeholder as this matter is on hold.
Ward (225-1-15.1)
Mr. Black stated that last month, the Board accepted this application as a complete preliminary application. Mr. Black stated that the Board requested a new drawing showing the entire parcel with improvements, perc test results and the addition of the Smith Farm to the AG Data Statement.
Mrs. Wood stated that the Smith address is wrong on the AG Data Statement. Mrs. Wood stated that it is a Ballston Spa mailing address and should have the zip code of 12020.
Mr. Black stated that the AG Data Statement has been modified. Mr. Black stated that the Board has received new maps. Mr. Black stated that the whole parcel is not exactly shown. Mr. Black stated that the Board wanted the parcel shown to tag it to existing known reference points. Mr. Black stated that the way the whole parcel is shown was to show it on the overall lands of Ward which is a less than surveyed parcel and the tag line is 450 feet +. Mr. Black stated that would be a question for engineering review.
Mr. Black stated that the perc test results were 12-inch perc tests, 1 inch in 4 minutes. Mr. Black stated that was sufficient.
Mr. Black stated that there was a letter that came from DEC to Mr. Ward, the overall owner, stating the finger of the wetland on the western 1/3 of the property, which would be the part that would include this lot, was deleted following Public Hearings in 1999 and as such is not under DEC jurisdiction. Mr. Black stated that the south end is still under DEC jurisdiction, but is not part of this subdivision.
Mr. Kadlecek stated that the marked property on the wetland map does not look at all like the wetland described there.
Mr. Black was in agreement.
Mrs. Wood stated that there is no indication on the drawing that it came from DEC.
Mr. Black stated that it was in the 90’s when DEC re-delineated wetlands and sent out notices if they wanted to include everything. Mr. Black stated that because Mr. Ward is including this drawing, at that point in time, that was the delineation intended for that parcel as a result of the Public Hearing. Mr. Black stated that DEC decided to delete this finger, which means that as far as DEC is concerned, as of the 1990’s, there are no wetlands in the northern portion of this parcel, which is where the subdivision is. Mr. Black stated that, coupled with where the test point is, which is not in the wetland, we get what is relatively incredible perc. Mr. Black stated that his opinion is that there is no wetland issue.
Mr. Kadlecek stated that he is trying to understand what he is looking at.
Mr. Armer stated that the lines are proportional.
Mr. Black stated that the Board could ask as to the basis of the delineation.
Mr. Kadlecek stated that he would like to walk the property before voting.
Mr. Black stated that based on what the Board has, the application could be accepted as a complete preliminary application, the Board could take lead agency, forward it to the County for review and schedule the Public Hearing for January.
Lot Line Change
Tasse/Vincent (226-1-70 and 226-1-658.111)
Mr. Black stated that this has been delayed on getting on the agenda because of incomplete information. Mr. Black stated that the Board now has a complete application. Mr. Black stated that the Board has a copy of the purchase contract, the AG Data Statement and the short form EAF. Mr. Black stated that the deed is missing indicating that Mr. Vincent owns the property.
Mrs. York stated that she has requested a copy of the deed.
Mrs. Wood inquired if there were ethical implications as her and Mr. Kadlecek sat with Mr. Tasse on the Planning Board.
Mr. Black stated that he also sat with Mr. Tasse on the Zoning Board of Appeals.
Mr. Ryan stated that there would be a conflict if a Board member held ownership interest in the application. Mr. Ryan stated that the fact that Mr. Tasse once sat on the Planning Board is of no concern.
Reports
Mr. Black stated that there would be standard reports.
Correspondence
Mr. Black stated that he wanted to make the Board aware that there will be a Farmland Protection Plan focus group.
The meeting was closed at 7:28 p.m.
BUSINESS MEETING
Opened at 7:30 p.m. with the Pledge of Allegiance.
Minutes
Mr. Kadlecek made the motion to approve the draft of the October 17, 2008 minutes with changes incorporated. Mrs. Wood seconded the motion. All were in favor.
Lot Line Adjustments
Heritage/Palmer (247-1-29.11 & 247-1-29.12)
Mr. and Mrs. Heritage appeared before the Board.
Mr. Black stated that the Board has received the new drawings with changes requested made. Mr. Black stated that the Board has received the County comments and they were the same changes that the Board requested. Mr. Black stated that the Board has waived the Public Hearing, engineering review and fees and has taken lead agency.
The Board reviewed the short form EAF and answered no to all questions.
Mr. Black made the motion that the proposed action is an unlisted action under SEQRA with a negative impact declaration relative to environmental impact. Mr. Kadlecek seconded the motion. All were in favor. Mrs. wood abstained from the vote.
Mr. Black made the motion to approve the lot line change as Resolution 2008-12 as indicated on the amended drawing received November 17, 2008 and authorize the chairman to sign the mylars. Mr. Wilkinson seconded the motion. All were in favor. Mrs. Wood abstained from the vote.
Resolution 2008-12 was made.
Mr. Black explained the number of maps required.
Subdivision Applications
Heflin/Durst (255-1-40.1,41,43.1,43.2,43.3)
No one representing this matter appeared.
Mr. Black stated that there has been no action and this is a placeholder.
Ward (225-1-15.1)
Michael Ward appeared before the Board.
Mr. Black stated that last month, the Board accepted the application as a complete preliminary application. Mr. Black stated that the Board requested new drawings showing the entire parcel with improvements, perc test results and amending the AG Data Statement. Mr. Black stated that the Board has all three.
Mr. Black stated that Mrs. Wood believes that the Smith Farm address is wrong. Mr. Black stated that with Mr. Ward’s authorization, the Board would amend the address.
Mr. Ward stated that was ok.
Mr. Black stated that the perc test results are in and the perc was 1 inch in 4 minutes.
Mr. LaFountain stated that the perc tests were done in the top 12 inches and they only went 48 inches for the deep hole results. Mr. LaFountain stated that the deep hole test should be at least 72 inches.
Mr. Black inquired if the tests were not correctly performed.
Mr. LaFountain stated that he would need to speak to Mr. VanGuilder about it. Mr. LaFountain stated that at this point, without a deeper test pit he feels that the information is not much good.
Mr. Black stated that they dug a 4-foot hole and asked Mr. LaFountain if it should have been 6 feet.
Mr. LaFountain stated yes.
Mr. Black inquired if the regulations were clearly delineated.
Mr. LaFountain responded yes and that he was surprised that Mr. VanGuilder did that without an explanation.
Mr. Black inquired why the test pits were so shallow.
Mr. Ward stated that he has no idea. Mr. Ward stated that he told Mr. Rabideau he needed a perc test and that Mr. LaFountain wanted to be present for the test.
Mr. LaFountain stated that he did not get a phone call from anyone.
Mr. Ward stated that he is angry with his surveyor for not doing the test right the first time. Mr. Ward stated that it costs more money every time.
Mr. Black stated that the Board has the letter from DEC regarding the wetlands. Mr. Black stated that the maps show ACOE wetlands but there is no reference to a source of information.
Mr. Ward stated that Mr. VanGuilder told him that if it is not a DEC wetland it is an ACOE wetland.
Mr. Black inquired as to what was the basis of the delineation.
Mr. Ward stated field delineation.
Mr. Black stated that the Board would like to see a note on the drawing indicating the basis of the delineation.
Mr. Ward stated that he assumes the field delineation was done when they did the perc tests.
Mr. Black stated that the Board has no problem with ACOE as indicated providing that the Board knows that is accurate. Mr. Black stated that it does not appear that there are any obstructions to construction on the site.
Mr. Ward stated that no construction is planned near the wetlands as far as the house goes.
Mr. Black inquired if there were plans to sell or build.
Mr. Ward stated that he would like to put a house on the land, more towards the middle of the property.
Mr. LaFountain stated that since they got heavy mottling at 38 inches, he is assuming that a built up system would be needed. Mr. LaFountain stated that since perc was reached at 1 inch in 4 minutes the top 12 inches would take water, so a built-up system would be needed.
Mr. Black inquired that the purpose of the perc test is to prove a built up system would be adequate.
Mr. LaFountain responded yes.
Mr. Black stated that the availability of the new information implies the need for a septic that is more than a built up system. Mr. Black stated that the Board needs engineered drawings via the Planning Board approval process or the building permit process. Mr. Black suggested doing the engineered drawings as part of the Planning Board approval process and have all of the information: house location, septic location, well location, and the need for a built-up septic system, including perc information.
Mr. Black inquired if the perc tests would need to be redone.
Mr. LaFountain responded no.
Mr. Black requested an amended drawing to include the built up septic system and the location and the basis of the wetland delineation. Mr. Black stated with that information, the Board would have complete information on the planned use for the site.
Mr. Ward inquired if the Board wanted to see the location and type of system on the drawing.
Mr. Kadlecek suggested that the locations could be proposed.
Mr. Black agreed.
Mr. LaFountain stated that there would be at least 3 feet of fill needed.
Mr. Ward stated that the side of the land used to flood about 20 years ago until the Town cut the ditches 3 feet deeper. Mr. Ward stated that, looking at the map, the south side is where the septic would go. Mr. Ward inquired if the higher mottling could be from the past.
Mr. LaFountain stated that Mr. Ward would need to speak to a soil engineer.
Mr. Kadlecek inquired if there was a road cut where the driveway is shown.
Mr. Ward responded yes, the driveway is already in place. Mr. Ward stated that the Town put in a culvert a long time ago.
Mr. Black stated that, if the parcel were able to achieve adequate perc at the levels Mr. LaFountain said, would that answer the question.
Mr. Armer stated that even if the hole was at 2 feet and they filled it and then, timed the water, you should still get the same perc even if it was deeper and if it wasn’t getting ground water.
Mr. LaFountain stated no, the soil condition at 2 feet should be greatly different.
Mr. Armer stated that if he dug the original 12-inch perc hole to the 2-foot depth, which is required, would it still be around a 4-minute perc.
Mr. LaFountain stated not necessarily.
Mr. Black stated that the only way to get away from a built-up system would be to re-do the perc tests correctly. It might prove that a raised system is not needed.
Mr. Ward stated that if there is mottling down 19 inches that means it came up to that point at some time.
Mr. Black stated that his interpretation of mottling is that it implies that water is present a very substantial portion of the time, not just occasionally. Mr. Black stated that it is not just a seasonal thing but there all the time.
Mr. LaFountain stated that it depends on how much of a slope there is between septic and wetlands
Mr. Black stated that there does not appear to be any slope at all on the property. There is one contour line and the parcel appears to be very flat, per the drawing.
Mr. Kadlecek asked Mr. Ward for permission to walk the property.
Mr. Ward responded that was fine, there is a gate that is locked but he could walk around it.
Mr. Ward stated that there is a 2 to 3 foot elevation drop from the test pit to a smaller wetland. Mr. Ward stated that the low spot used to flood across the road.
Mr. Black inquired if Mr. VanGuilder did the delineation.
Mr. Ward stated that he was charged for it.
Mr. Black reviewed the Board’s requests for the next meeting:
-amendment to the drawing to show the proposed building location, proposed septic and well locations;
-indication of septic system, whether built-up system with a note or repeat the test pit and perc test to indicate that a built-up system is not really required;
-a note with the basis of the ACOE wetlands delineation. [ie who performed the site walk and when]
Mr. LaFountain inquired if a buffer was required between the septic and wetland.
Mr. Black stated that there is a 100 foot buffer requirement to DEC wetlands but there is no defined buffer with ACOE.
Mr. LaFountain stated that the septic system should not be built right up to the wetland.
Mr. Black stated that as long as the system does not enter the wetland it could be built there.
Mr. Black stated that the Board is still lacking information to forward the application to the Town engineer and the County and schedule the Public Hearing. Mr. Black stated that the Board does not usually meet in December but the Board could set up the Public Hearing for December if the information is received well in advance to the Hearing. Mr. Black stated that the Board could instead schedule the Hearing for January, allowing for more time to gather the information.
Mr. Ward stated that January was fine. Mr. Ward inquired if he had to have an engineer do the septic system.
Mr. LaFountain stated that when he is at the point where he is ready to do a septic system, it had to be designed by a professional.
Mr. Ward inquired why it has to be on the drawings.
Mr. Black stated that it is the Planning Board’s way of ensuring that the Zoning Enforcement Officer understands that it was the Board’s interpretation that a built-up system was required so that he is looking for that as part of the building permit process.
Mr. Kadlecek stated that the Board does not need the details now, just a location.
Mr. LaFountain stated that when the engineer designs the system, it will have to go to the Town engineer for review at the applicant’s expense and no building permit can be issued until the Town engineer ok’s the plans.
Mr. Ward inquired if there was any possibility that the Town engineer could say no.
Mr. Black stated that it is possible, but that it is remote.
Mr. Black made the motion to declare the Planning Board as lead agency for the purposes of SEQRA. Mr. Kadlecek seconded the motion. All were in favor.
Mr. Black made the motion to schedule the Public Hearing for January 19, 2009 at 7:45 p.m. contingent upon receiving the revised drawings by December 20, 2008. Mr. Kadlecek seconded the motion. All were in favor.
Mrs. York will send the drawings to the County and Mr. McNamara once the revised drawings have been received.
Lot Line Adjustments
Tasse/Vincent (226-1-70 and 226-1-68.111)
John Tasse and Jim Vincent appeared before the Board.
Mr. Black stated that this is a conveyance of 12.5 acres from Jim Vincent to John Tasse. Mr. Black asked Mr. Vincent to show the intention on the drawing.
Mr. Black asked Mr. Ryan, what is needed to remove a deeded right-of-way.
Mr. Ryan stated that there would need to be a new deed extinguishing the right of way, and it would have to be re-filed at the County Clerk’s office.
The Board discussed the issue of the right of way.
Mr. Black suggested that, in order to avoid land locking the large parcel of approximately 36 acres, removing the right of way. Mr. Black asked Mr. Ryan to look into extinguishing an easement.
Mrs. Wood inquired why the solid line to the south of the easement is not a dark line like the rest of the lines.
Mr. Vincent stated that was an error.
Mr. Black stated that the proposed lot line change to Mr. Tasse from Mr. Vincent is ok. Mr. Black stated that the Board needs proof of ownership from Mr. Vincent.
Mr. Vincent stated that Mr. VanVranken has a copy of the deed. Mr. Vincent stated that he would get the Board a copy.
Mr. Black stated that if the land is that of the Alberta Vincent Trust, then a copy of the Power of Attorney allowing Mr. Vincent to convey the land is needed.
Mr. Black stated that if Mr. Vincent were amenable to consolidating deeds to remove the right of way, it would be the Board’s desire to do both at the same time as the lot line change.
Mr. Vincent stated that he would speak to his lawyer, Mr. VanVranken.
Mrs. Wood made the motion to waive the Public Hearing, engineering review and fees. Mr. Kadlecek seconded the motion. All were in favor.
Mr. Black stated that the Board needs a copy of the deed and any affidavits required from Alberta Vincent together with a copy of the trust.
Mr. Black asked Mr. Ryan to coordinate with Mr. VanVranken on the removal of the right of way.
Mr. Black stated that Mrs. York would send the application to the County for review.
Mr. Black summarized the 4 requirements of the Planning Board:
1) Provide copies of the deed and proof that Mr. Vincent is authorized to act on behalf of the trust
2) The Planning Board desires to have the right-of-way removed
3) Have the drawing modified to remove the right-of-way and to refer to the revised deed
4) Darken the line, south of the easement, as pointed out by Mrs. Wood.
Mr. Black made the motion for the Planning Board be designated as lead agency status for the purposes of SEQRA. Mr. Wilkinson seconded the motion. All were in favor.
Zoning Administrator Report
Mr. LaFountain provided his report for October, 2008. The Board reviewed the report.
Correspondence
Mr. Black stated that the sign up for the January Planning conference are due.
Mr. Black stated that the Farmland Focus Group is for informational purposes.
Town Board Liaison
Mr. Black stated that the Board had discussed sending a follow-up letter to applicants after the meeting. Mr. Black stated that he has not yet spoken to Mr. Keniry about the suggestion.
Mr. Ryan stated that it would be a good idea for the Board to do that as it would provide the applicant and the Board with a clear understanding of what needs to be done efficiently.
Mrs. Verola suggested having the Planning Board attorney draft a letter for the Board to use.
Mr. Black asked Mr. Ryan to draft a “master” letter that the Board could use.
There will not be a December meeting. The Board will meet on December 14, 2008 for the annual Christmas Party.
Mr. Black made the motion to adjourn the meeting. Mrs. Wood seconded the motion. All were in favor.
The meeting was adjourned at 9:00 p.m.
Respectfully Submitted,
Kimberly A. Caron
Recording Secretary
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